EP 5 New Aussie Influencer Regulations and Implications with Sonia Elyss

Timestamps:

• [2:20] Sonia's thoughts on the Australian regulations.

• [6:06] There is a middle ground for this situation.

• [9:49] There is a lack of respect for influencer marketing.

• [13:46] There is no rule book for when you start as an influencer.

• [15:44] Should influencers unionize?

--

LINKS:

Find Harley:

IG: @theharleyjordan

Website: https://www.millennialescape.com/

Find Sonia:

IG: @Sonia.elyss

Website: https://www.soniaelyss.com/

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0:00

Welcome to brand meet crater podcast a place where we pull back the curtain of what it means to be all in on social media. So get ready to kick start conversations about the social media world with a little leave nothing off the table transparency, or maybe more than just a little you girl has yet to learn the art of a filter. So talk in it's time to bring some solidarity to the influencer and brand space.

0:28

Within this episode, we're breaking down new Australian regulations that ban influencers from receiving products such as cash or samples to promote various health products. I've brought Sonya along because we know we need her hot takes. Let's jump into the episode. A couple of new recent things that have come up in the influencer marketing world. first of which being the Australian, which just posted a post that says influencers will be banned from receiving perks such as cash or samples to remote skincare and other health products. The new TGA advertising code allows influencers to give testimonials, for products, but only if they receive nothing in return. So no gifted goods, no payment, no nothing. And for me reading this, my first thought was this is such a career ending move for beauty bloggers, that's terrifying. And I understand why Australia is bringing this out. They're cracking down on the practice of influencers pushing these health goods when they don't know what they're talking about. So if you're talking about you know, the fit 19 year old that's holding a protein powder in her hand, that's saying this is what you need to do to lose weight that's very different than your beauty blogger that showing something with skincare in it and showing off her experience her journey. So the couple of things to to lay out what more of what they said the things that will not be allowed to, for influencers to post in exchange for any kind of anything or sunscreens, protein powders, vitamins, supplements, skincare for acne, medicines and skin lightening products. So Sonia, what were your initial thoughts on all of this hubbub?

2:25

Um, I definitely was shocked. I think that this is a drastic step towards regulation. Looking at things more closely, I was really interested in the categories that they selected. Because it's not skincare as a whole there is like a little asterisk there that is skincare specific to acne treatment, as well as SPF and those in globally, they're all regulated completely differently, but they are more of a category that's seen as medical grade. So something that is in relations to being a doctor or physician, in terms of how you use them. And there are a lot of specifics, even in the United States as to how you're allowed to promote products, as a marketer in the beauty industry, especially around SPF, and around anything that like clears up acne or lighten skin whatsoever. So looking at the categories, I can see why they want there to be more regulation, but I was a little concern as to why they made it such a hard stop. And there wasn't any sort of time. If you complete some sort of a training process, or if the brand has some sort of an education onboarding, then it's allowed. And they were also saying that you had to take that down anything that was posted prior as well, which I thought was quite stringent. So you know, it felt like a burn down

3:53

the house kind of kind of situation like we're not fixing the root cause of the problem. We're not going to the company and saying, you know, your claims need to be tested, you need to fix your product, like you have fillers in your protein powders, that's a problem and said, We're going just to the marketing, and we're saying influencers you get to take every ounce of blame for all of this. Sure.

4:17

I mean, I think while it does feel that way, like the influencers are taking all the blame, I think it's also blame on the brands, right? They'll lose a ton of eyeballs a ton of conversions by not being able to advertise through influencers any longer. I mean, I think it's, you know, it's going to be hurtful for both sides 100% Because then the only other option is going to be more traditional forms of advertising. Even more traditional forms of digital advertising, which either might be more expensive, might be more difficult to do isn't going to be able to target the same type of audiences. You know, these types of marketing all go hand in hand. So when you lose a piece of the puzzle into Seems like your marketing structure, it can become very difficult. So I think, you know, eliminating any sort of influencer option in these categories can be pretty detrimental to a business as well as, of course, the influencer, who's no longer going to be able to take payments, or even gifting for these types.

5:19

The other caveat that I kind of saw was that you can still post about it, as long as you're not talking about your experience, as long as you're just posting about those medical claims. It seems like such a weird thing to to harp on, because that's the journey is part of it, you know, that review process the influencers can bring like, isn't that the heart of influencer marketing is you're taking these influential people, and you're saying, Okay, what was your experience with it? If I'm not telling about my journey, my experience with a skincare product with a vitamin, then how can I really tell you all about it? Other than like, I've been using this for three months, insert all of the salesy key points that the brand wants you to put in there, like,

6:06

for sure, I think that there is an in between, right, because what you're describing even like may not be the best form of unique using influencers, where if you just said like, I've been using this thing, and then that's it, you know, really get the point across. But also, I think in these categories, there has been historically people, brands and influencers who allow there to be kind of like a one and done philosophy, they get paid to say, well, they get paid to say they like a supplement, and they don't know the science behind it. And in that respect, I do think that, you know, the Australian government has a point, there should be more regulation. And I think that's like a global scenario. Part of the problem with LinkedIn marketing, and why we're losing some steam right now, in some credibility is because there has been distasteful programs that have launched, where it's very clear that people just got paid to say the thing and post the thing, and then it was over. Right. And in areas like pharmaceuticals in areas like skincare where there are a lot of marketing dollars, there's maybe not the same thoughtfulness. So I you know, I recently brought up to you the Vogue business article where they were talking about a skincare group in the UK, that is forming a I believe it was a six part module that would take over eight months of training around skincare, and ingredients and what certain things do specifically for influencers? And I think something like that is a great first step in terms of saying like, can we start altering influencers, then certification if they like, or additional education, if they like? Can brands and influencers come together and say, Hey, but we still want this part of the marketing journey to be communicated by influencers. But you know, maybe people are right, maybe we need to have some more stringent checkboxes here before someone's allowed to speak about something, especially something that's medical grade. And I think offering them that, like, hey, we'd like to have you in a campaign. But you'd have to get through this training first. To make it viable, I think is a great middle ground, right? It shows that an influencer is willing to put in the time and effort to communicate properly to their audience. And it shows that the brand is also concerned and invested in making sure that their product is being communicated correctly to audiences out there. So I think there is a middle ground and that maybe the Australia's first step is a little bit too harsh.

8:41

Yeah, I think there's their first step is definitely too harsh. I could definitely see, you know, bigger programs like that coming about industry wide. And if something like that was pushed further than that, and regulated like that, I think that would be amazing. Like, yeah, of course, I want my health influencers to know that you should have third party testing on all your supplements, supplements. Of course I want that. Like that's not I feel like that's not the question. That's not what the issue is. And to take that a step further. One of the things actually the thing that hit me the hardest with all of this, this hubbub on the Australians post was really the comments and the comments are inundated with brilliant half of them have no idea what they're promoting anyway, like they're all sellouts. They need to go get an education like all of this stuff, that was really just bashing and cancel culture to influencers in general. And I I just can't not the poor widow influencers boo hoo hoo 300 likes on that comment, but that's rejects these people.

9:51

Respect for influencer marketing, you know, the lack of respect there is I think, really difficult and I think that is something With that in the US, we've been working specifically very hard on to stop giving influencer like a bad rap. Right? Like there's nothing wrong with being an influencer. So many people of Gen Z right now listen, they'd like to become influencers or writers. And so I,

10:16

what I want to be when I grew up, you're totally right,

10:19

exactly. While for some people who maybe don't get it, it might seem cringe worthy, I think it's just a lack of respect. And I think part of that came because, as with anything else, like reality TV in general, like you don't understand the work that goes into it, they don't understand the business acumen, the deals, all of that what it takes to really create a big community that you can survive off of as a full time job. Like, I think people just see it and they say, Oh, it's so easy, and they don't realize the work it takes to do it. And on the other end of that, I think that there have been plenty of influencers at the top of their fame that did stuff that was cringe worthy. They took partnerships where they are holding up, vitamin that doesn't make sense. And, you know, we've we've seen the wave of that. And now I think we're at like this, I don't know, great reckoning, where people who you also have

11:16

the people that the people that get flagged by the what is it called the regulation within say that's about disclosing your partnerships. What does that entail? Yeah, the people that get flagged the most by that are like Kim Kardashian, like your big name, people with millions and millions of followers. It's not your your 5k influencer. It's not your 20k influencer. It's not your 100k influencer. And it's really those people that I think have brought it brought down the name, which is so unfortunate, because I wouldn't even call Kim Kardashian an influencer at any point in her career, like she is a celebrity. That's very different.

11:59

I agree. And I think that in the US specifically, like, people don't trust that anyone is going to disclose, and people do not trust that they're going to disclose gifted, you know, influencers are convinced that if they post things using the partnership tools inside Instagram, that they are punished for, it will get shadow banned, then they get shadow banned. There's like so there's so much inconsistency there. And, you know, I think I can recall, at one point there, there being an FTC investigation into something, but the irregularity of it is so high. And I think for this industry to be taken seriously, it needs to have the same rules and regulations that other industries have, you know, as a marketer, when I go to run ads, I know like I can't run them for under 18. I can't use drugs or alcoholic. There's so many regulations in place in terms of targeting and how things are run, that it baffles me that for an industry that has billions of dollars flowing through it every single year and has with consistency for many years, that the FTC has not created more of a task force or more of a focus on regular penalties or whatever it may take awhile, I don't want to see anyone get penalized, I do want to see respect for the industry and rules that everyone has to abide by, and no more shady marketing marketing practices. So you know, if it means that some people have to get the slap on the wrist from the FTC, then that's very unfortunate, but it really is the I think one of the ways that we're gonna get to having more respect for the industry as a whole as if everyone follows the rules.

13:46

I think so too. And I think one of the biggest issues is that when you jump into it, there is no rulebook it's so cloak and dagger that when you're first starting, you don't know the rules. You don't know that you have to disclose gifted, you don't know that you have to one thing that I learned the other day, well, I don't I don't know if it was the other day. But I reiterated with a lawyer the other day was that you have to put the fact that it's paid on the video itself if you are marketing a product in a video, so it can't just be in the caption it has to be in the video. And of course only in your Kim K's I'm sorry, I'm picking on her right now are going to get flagged for that. But you're huge Tiktok stars are gonna get flack for that not your little blogger, but no one does that. No one No one puts that disclosure in the video themselves itself.

14:43

I mean, I did start to see that as a trend when we would do a lot more sponsored Instagram stories. This is before Rios came out. But now with reels or Tik Tok videos, I haven't noticed it at all. It's only in the captions and I you know, what tends to happen? then and this happens, I think, what, what tends to happen and I think this happens over all industries, when they're new and emerging and things are changing, is that we create a set of established rules for something and then the whole platform and the whole technology changes, and then rewritten and re communicated in a way that makes crystal clear sentence, like if it is that you have to put an ad on everything, but that was established before you even have reels or even or Tik Tok was even launched in the United States, like, why would anyone start to think that that's applied to those things? It's like, oh, well, that was that was before we had these other things. Right. So without constant communication to influencers as a whole. It's just, you know, pretty difficult.

15:44

Do we think influencers need to be unionized? I?

15:48

I don't know. It's a great question. I've never been part of a union and I don't know a lot about union rules. But I mean, there definitely has to be more regulation 100%, it would also start there, it would also start the process of regulation for pricing.

16:02

So yeah,

16:04

that is, ooh, that's a tricky one. Oh, I don't know.

16:08

I know. That's why I threw it at you instead of me. I mean, what is

16:13

the join the union Harley? Wait, would you join a union? I don't know. Would you join like the influencer union? I guess it depends on like, what sort of promotions and things that they were

16:22

on as it called. Okay. So I know that sag AFTRA is kind of that version for actors, and that includes influencers. So we're like, kind of moving that way, we're taking those steps. And I think it would depend on the person the, the, what I need to do to get into it, you know, because I wouldn't go to sag right now. Because I'd be like, little me, like, that's gonna be really hard for me to get in. It'd be really hard for me to even get, it's really hard to even get verified, like all of those steps, just make it really hard as a small influencer. So when is it actually worth it to jump into something like that? Like, I just don't? I don't know.

17:05

I mean, I definitely think it would be in the best interest of the, you know, sag team to create a subdivision just for influencers, or digital creators. And I know that there have been attempts at, you know, creating agents, not agencies, but like, influencer founded, like teams or regulations, especially during COVID, where people were saying that this was a self regulated body with a board of people that were both influencer and Bran and Colin manager, that would help better establish regulations and give people advice as to how to protect themselves against potential issues with brands. And I do think that something like that needs to happen. But I don't know that it can be something that's just like, Oh, we're popular, and we've been in the industry a long time, we'll just decide to create it. I think it has to be something that honestly comes from the government, which seems I did to seems quite severe. But at the same time, you're thinking like, this is a multibillion dollar business, we're talking about like spending New, and it's something that is affecting young teens, it's something that is affecting brands and economies and like why wouldn't the government get involved and say, hey, we'll put together like a small, you know, regulatory board and influencers can pay their dues every year, and they'll be protected under these rules.

18:40

Right. And I think if it came from someone in the showbiz world, it wouldn't make sense for me, like if it was on the sag side, that makes tons of sense. But if it's just government, like I think this is the initial problem with the Australian regulation is no one knew what they were talking about. When they stepped into it. They knew about the health side, they knew about the marketing side maybe of the implications on the consumer, but they didn't know the on the ground level issues. So I think that's the problem is government stepped in and they said, Here you go consumer and there's no regard for the fact that Instagrams changing every day engagement is changing. I saw a client have a 30k pay cut recently, because budget is gone all in quotes. And like that's just, you know, that's the industry is really hard. There's a lot of competition right now. So you're telling me this needs to come now when people are struggling to keep up and are really worried about their engagement and are struggling to pay bills? Like I just have a problem with that.

19:51

Yeah, I think I think it'll be a very interesting area to watch and see if it does fully go into effect and What actually happens with influencers based in Australia? If they do start taking things down? Or if they get fined or what exactly happens? I mean, just like the FTC, it's a lot of people who hear the threat, but they aren't scared. So I don't know, I think failure is a little bit different. They have a little bit maybe a little bit tighter hold, because it's a smaller group. But I think in the US, definitely, I don't think influencers are scared, I don't think that they feel like they need to disclose or use ad or follow all the rules, because they're like, it's not gonna happen to me. Because I it's been a long time before we've seen anyone, oh, the common level, let's call it non right. get in trouble for anything.

20:46

I mean, we're talking in the 100k realm, like that's not on it. I had a client that gained 50k Last season, like over the weekend, like, that's, that could happen overnight. You know, that's not something that that is out of this world, nowadays, with virility,

21:05

for sure. And, you know, is this something where like kicks in at a certain follower count? Is it something that it kicks in at a certain engagement rate? Right? Is it both? Exactly. And with the opening of creator economy, and, you know, Instagram, you know, democratize links for all that. And who's to say that everyone shouldn't be disclosing things? And, you know, if I get gifted something from one of my brands that I work with, should I be disclosing that I'm using that product? Because they gave it to me? Should I be saying, you know, like, I get a discount from Rent the Runway because I, you know, supply their code to my friends, like, I don't know, I don't even know. them? Yes. So after all, I'm working my way back to 1000. But like, at what point is the threshold where you're sort of like, done being a quote unquote, Instagram commoner, and then you've become like an Instagram influencer or a creator?

22:06

I have a friend that calls that a Normie. Done being a Normie. And now I'm an influencer?

22:14

I see I said, Instagram comments. I don't think either one was better. I don't think either one are very positive. That's definitely not how I refer people. I've only how I refer

22:28

people just for girls that get it get it. Exactly, exactly. I really think this opens up a whole new can of worms with also the believability of influencers when they do disclose that ad. And I want to dive deeper into that with you next episode. But we're hitting our time cap right now. So thank you so much for joining us, Sonia. As always, I love having you here and I love being able to break down all of this jazz. You know where to find her. She's linked in the show notes and we will catch you next time. Thank you for listening to this episode of brand new creator if you loved it, rate, review, subscribe and of course share. For more on how you can create influence and get paid. Come hang out with me on Instagram at Harley Jordan