EP 11 The deep dark depths of DM culture
Sonia and Harley discuss necessary boundaries within your DM's: how should you be looking at these interactions, what is far too much to put on yourself as a creator or brand, and what should the general etiquette actually be via private message.
Timestamps:
[2:33] Ask yourself before DM-ing: "Would I say this out loud?"
[6:50] "Can I pick your brain?" - Dealing with this question and setting boundaries.
[11:58] Giving advice when it wasn't asked for.
[13:35] Customer service on Instagram.
[17:16] When is the right time to DM a brand?
[18:37] The bottom line...
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LINKS:
Find Harley:
IG: @theharleyjordan
Website: https://www.theharleyjordan.com/
Find Sonia:
IG: @Sonia.elyss
Website: https://www.soniaelyss.com/
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00:00
Welcome to brand meet Creator Podcast with me Harley Jordan and Sonia Elise, a place where we pull back
0:06
the curtain and the trashy filters on the influencer marketing industry.
0:10
So pull up a chair and grab a notebook, it's time to shed some light
0:13
on the ever changing it's diverse. Harley, you know what they say it all goes down in the DMS. And I shared with you a recent article from The Washington Post, where they looked at over 1700 direct messages of five high profile women on Instagram, including Amber Heard, including ever heard, and they found so much trash, so much abuse. And this quotes that Instagram failed to act on 90% of the abuse, which is so so sad. And I sent it to you because I really do think and this is part of internet bullying. This is part of comic culture. I know there's a whole psychology behind this, but people get crazy in the DMS, like what is going on what is going on? And this goes for brands and influencers? And I'm sure you know, because you have a very solid following on Instagram. And I know you have sent me DMS from people. DM you be like just a little rant here. But what is this person thinking? So I think we wanted to do a hot button episode here on DM etiquette and just like how people can clean up their act out. They're like what is going on?
1:35
Yeah. And the thing that I find most interesting is that Instagram is trying to take these efforts to decrease bullying, make it a safe app, et cetera. But there is just so much craziness that happens in DMS. And oh god last week, I swear, it was a retrograde like, has no idea if anything astrological was happening. But the amount of DMS that I got that were just giving me some kind of thing that I needed to do. were pushing something on me for demanding something of me were spilling all their like trauma dumping on me. It was a little bit it was a little bit wild. And that's not to say that I you know, hate getting DMS I love getting DMS I love chatting to people in my DMs but DM etiquette needs to be better we need to we need to solidify this here. Let's bring it down.
2:33
Absolutely. Okay, so let's start with the obvious. I think before you DM someone you should ask yourself this is one question you can use as a barrier for entry. What I say this out loud, to this person to their face. What I say this out loud to their face would
2:51
even go as far as what I walk up to someone that doesn't know my name and say this on the street. Correct?
3:00
I think we do have of course a phenomenon of people watch us on Instagram, Instagram stories, and we share a lot of our personal life, we share a lot of what goes on day to day. And it does create a bond with people that feels strong. Like you know each other for real like that in real life friendship. And when you have that bond started and you know that this person comments to you a lot of comments on all of your posts replies to all of your stories, it does sort of feel like it opens up the door for them to say things that they would a close friend, and they don't necessarily pause and say wait, I've never actually met this person. They don't know me personally. And maybe this is a bit too in depth or too detailed to be asked.
3:46
You know, I don't think it's the people that interact with you daily though. It's the person that slides into your DMS with out doing any of that it's really the problem if you haven't built up a relationship in the DMS in the comments if literally, if I don't know your name, because I know your name. If we've been interacting if you've been you know, commenting, whatever, like we've been chatting, like that's a very different story than someone that DMS me it's a cold DM it's called DM Sure,
4:19
and I think a lot of those people are lurkers, which means that they have been watching you they do see all of your content, but they don't interact. So they may also have that mindset of like, Oh, I know this person, but they don't. Because they've never bridged that gap of just general friendliness and Intro Hello, how are you? And I think that brings us into like just a general intro. Hello. How are you? Like I hear so much from young writers and brands, people demanding things in DNS without a pleaser Thank you without any sort of common courtesy like no one's asking you to send a you know carrier pigeon thank you note here, but Common courtesy still applies on the internet sticker asking for a favor. When you're asking for a favor, and if I'm saying like, Oh, Harley, I know you mentioned that you liked XY and Z, like, Could you remind me what that brand was like, please, when you have a minute, I know you're busy, right? Like, just like an email just like attacks, like, sometimes people can't. It's like, we're still in the real world, we have other things to do in our lives, believe it or not, and I applying that common courtesy and that, like, pause the breaks and say, Please, and thank you, and when you have a minute, and understanding that not everybody can get back to your every whim on a heartbeat is really important, like adjust those expectations.
5:46
I think that's the crux of the matter is, it's not that you're requesting something, it's that you wouldn't say this in a text message. Like K forget about you don't know me in real life. Like you wouldn't say that in a text message.
6:01
Absolutely. And it's like it's not a creator, or a brand's job to do the work for you. Like there is still Google, there is still the interwebs like you have a brain hopefully. But it's like when you're asking Hartley to like, map out her full trip that she just went on for you. I mean, I don't know, this is a random example, like, that's on her jaw. Like if she wanted to do that, she would have done a blog post on it, or she would have done like a highlight, and then she can send you to the highlight. But you know, like, just because someone does something, visit somewhere and they put it on the internet, it is not then their job to share every moment of that with you, and give you every link to their full itinerary. And that goes for shopping or anything else if they want to great and if they don't, that's also fine.
6:50
You know what one of one of the other things is that? Can I pick your brain? And this happens a lot in the the business world, I'm sure you get it, where you have someone you've never talked to you have a service that offers the thing that they're asking for. And they slide into your DMS and they say, can I just pick your brain, I'm in your industry, as if that makes it better.
7:14
Doesn't make it better. And I mean, everyone has their own set of boundaries. And I highly recommend anyone listening to this, that gets that sort of DM to create a boundary for yourself right now if you don't have it. Yet. Some people have a zero tolerance policy, they get the pick your brain type, DM or email and they send them directly to the bookings page. I'd be happy to answer this over my 20 minute paid call. Here's where you can book it, end of story. I will respond in some way with a partial answer, maybe not as full fledged as my knowledge has for free the one time if someone comes back after that, it's game over for me. And it's straight to my hourly rate for consulting or whatever else I'm sorry, I'm not able to do this right now.
8:06
If I can answer it in the 62nd voice smote note that Instagram gives me the ability for I am happy to answer it. Even if honestly even in like two minutes of a voice note. That's fine with me. Where it really pushes my buttons is the I would like a full strategy conversation about my life and times. And here's all of everything that I'm struggling with right now dissect it,
8:33
maybe just take some of your drama and some of your questions and some of your things and find other places to release and scatter it. Because it is not the creator world's problem matter
8:46
is that one of a friend of mine has like body positivity page. And the things that she talks about frequently are deep water, their deep water. So when people slide into her DM she has 6000 followers, like it's not even like 100k wildness, she gets her endless DM she can't keep up with her DMs because it's so many people with these novels, that they're writing out to her and it's all about their life and times and the whole situation. And what they're really doing is just trauma dumping all of their life story all that needs to be worked through with a friend because it feels like a friend online. But the mental capacity involved in answering all of those in having the tough conversation over and over and over again and having it authentically is really tough.
9:44
Absolutely. And I think it's probably something that we don't talk about enough when we're talking about authenticity, which of course is like a big buzz topic and something that we're always pushing people to do more of online. But authenticity does open up the door for other people's authenticity like on my Instagram, I've talked about being divorced. And I get a lot of people responding back about also being divorced. And I don't get that deep into the trauma of it, you know, I like more to just have it as a conversation point occasionally, because I want there to be a good example out there for other women who might be going through it right. But on I have received a lot of DMS in the past about other people's divorce issues, divorce trauma, the current issues that they're having, and it is a lot and that's just like a minute taste of what is going on for people who are like your friend has 6000 followers and talking about a topic, non stop. So I think that is something to think about is like, how can you set a boundary on that even and have even a general response that you can start with and say, I really appreciate you sharing this moment with me, I'll do my best to respond more thoughtfully, when I have a moment or you know, whatever you can do so that they do feel heard, because in some aspects, I do think that your friend has a bit of a responsibility because she opened up the door for that type of creation by being the honest communicator first, which is amazing. But it is a burden. And you don't want people to not feel heard when they're sharing something vulnerable about themselves. And, you know, we talk a lot about Instagram not being a megaphone, but you know, she can't just talk and expect no one's gonna talk back. So getting those messages back is so important. And I'm sure she also feels, you know, very honored that people trust her with their story. Right. But yeah, she definitely would have to work towards some boundaries there. Because that is, right, we really, totally,
11:40
we definitely need to be responding. Like don't get me wrong, I, I think that there, there does need to be quite a bit of responding there. You need to be hanging out in your DMS for quite a bit of time every day as a creator. But yeah, that boundary just needs to be set. One of the other huge things in DM etiquette that I see is giving advice when it's not requested, giving suggestions giving you should giving all the input.
12:14
I mean, I honestly think this is like I don't know if this is an American issue. What but the audacity people have to tell you what to do and be careful with and this and that. Whether they know you or not, it's just wild. And I think the internet is the wild is the peak place that has heat. I'm sure like for someone like Harley, who shows herself working out quite frequently, people probably respond a lot like Oh, be careful, you don't have this injury. Like I have a friend who's on Instagram as a physical therapist, and she's also a very good Olympic weightlifter, and the DMS she gets oh my goodness, like
12:55
I have a master's in this.
12:57
She's like, yeah, like I literally coach other people to do this, I don't need your opinion. She's like I'm on here giving facts for other people. And they can take them or not. But I'm not asking for any advice. Like I got it.
13:12
You know what I feel like I'm in a weird spot for that actually, because I do have the degree in Exercise Science. I do have like the certifications and nutrition and I am a CPT, even though that was a path. So anytime I'm on anytime I'm on stories working out or showing off that content, I'm like, please don't please don't respond to me. I know, I know it, I know it already.
13:35
Okay, last bit I want to talk about this is actually from the brand side because we are here for brand and creator. And I just want to bring up also customer service through Instagram. I as someone who who helps manage accounts for brands, and the hate comments about my shipping has not been updated. The DMS that are slanderous about getting the wrong products or UPS did not deliver or you know, FedEx dropped off at the wrong spot. I would just like people to take one moment. And I'm not saying that these are non issues they are. But there should be an email where these go, everybody has an email. Instagram is not always the fastest way to get your problem solved. While you might feel heard more quickly, we still have to send that to customer service. And a lot of times when we send these screenshots to customer service, they respond back yes, I'm already in communication with this person. It is so rare that this person hasn't already done all the things and they just feel like oh, but you know and I'm also going to comment on the Instagram. Please don't Please don't. While I appreciate your engagement on this post. I also didn't want to have to delete your five comments that say my my item hasn't come where is it? Where is it like, but just be kind to the people In the DMS and no, that's just a social media person on the other side doing their best every goddamn day, and you screaming at them that your concealer is not the right color. And if someone else's fault is not helping them in life, it's probably not helping you in life either. So let's hold that for the customer service line.
15:17
What do you think those DMS are for as a brand? What kind of messages
15:21
um, as a brand, there are some great examples. If any, UGC gets tagged, whether that is someone who has a lot of followers, or someone has 50 followers, is a great place to say thank you. A great place to say thank you. And that is not just double tapping the heart of what mentioned you, that's an actual response that says, I'm so glad you like this. I appreciate that. And that's so generic. But I tried a lot of beauty products, as you know, and when a brand responds back, like, this looks gorgeous on you, or so glad you liked it, or whatever else there. Yeah, oh, jeez, I feel good. Like, I know that they've seen it. And they didn't just like double tap it as part of like the practice that they go through, but they start like a little tiny nugget, which makes me want to keep tagging them. I definitely think it's for that. I know that they field a lot of incoming DMS from influencers pitching in the DMS. And you know, we follow those on and we keep them on our list if they make sense. So, influencers if that's the way you'd like to go about an intro, I'm not gonna say don't do it. But I'm also not gonna say it's the most effective way to be seen. But it's a good start for some people. And for brands, I just think it's a great place to have a conversation, especially if you've seen that the same person has tagged you in stories like multiple times, or a post multiple times. I think it's a great place for to create advocacy to respond back men. Oh, we'd love to know, like, why you're loving this product, like you know how to do it for everyone, especially as you get into the hundreds of 1000s of followers. But I think like if I've tagged the same eyeshadow five times, and a brand responds back like you clearly love it. Like, could you tell us more like why you bought it? Where? How did you hear about us like interest? It's so hard to get people's attention out in the real world with like, leave us review, do this thing. I think it's a great place to like start a more loyal conversation with people that you see are tagging you so frequently.
17:!6
Is there any things specifically that you should be DMing? Your brand, like when is when is the right time to DM a brand? It's not customer service? So what is it?
17:28
No, I think when you really love something when you want to say something positive, or sometimes it is when you want to say like a product isn't working anymore. Maybe you have an issue. Like it could be like an application question. Oh, the instructions here aren't clear, could you let me know or you know, something like that or if they post content that gives a tutorial and you're still not clear. And that's a good time to try to DM I don't think that most brands do see especially with larger followings see long DMS so for me, I'd keep it to something that's a little bit lighter. Anything else should go to the customer service, phone number or email because they're really the ones that are trained in all of the products, all of the everything and can give you the true response to everything that you need. I think it's just going in with respect that you may not get a response right away or ever. If someone has a larger following like they just can't, you just can't respond to everyone. It's like DMing Kim Kardashian like you think she's gonna respond to your fan mail, like, no, that's not gonna happen. So just keep in mind that it's a small team most likely on the other side and even on a big team. You can't get back to everyone so it just depends. Alright, so when it comes to DMS, I think to wrap this up, we just want people to walk away with a little nugget of understanding when it comes to Instagram DMS, just realizing that this topic clearly is so much wider. We know that there are so many other things happening in people's DMS that are inappropriate and we are just skimming the surface here. But this is just a reminder for fans and followers of both brands and creators that you should just pump the brakes on the DMS. Don't expect too much. This is not a customer service hotline. We are not here to just serve and only give back and be careful what you're sharing in this DMS because you know nothing is truly ever private.
19:24
If you'd love this episode, rate review subscribe and come hang out with us on Instagram at the Harley Jordan and Sonia dot Elise. If you have any suggestions about what you want to hear next come tell us we can't wait to hear from you