EP 10 Affiliate Marketing: the good, the bad, & the illogical
Sonia and Harley work through their thoughts, feelings and deep concerns about affiliate marketing from the Brand & Creator perspective: when it makes sense (and doesn't), how many is too many (and how long do you give each), and what products actually make SENSE in a commission based model.
Timestamps:
[1:44] Harley's story about an influencer getting underpaid.
[3:14] Sonia's story about an influencer charging too much.
[5:24] Affiliate marketing - the different types.
[6:31] Adding in a fixed rate for influencers.
[12:43] How often do we need to be using affiliate links?
[16:20] You have to be in it for the long haul.
[20:09] The price of the product - what is the sweet spot for brands and creators?
--
LINKS:
Find Harley:
IG: @theharleyjordan
Website: https://www.theharleyjordan.com/
Find Sonia:
IG: @Sonia.elyss
Website: https://www.soniaelyss.com/
Follow The Brand Meet Creator Podcast:
Rate, Review, Subscribe & Share: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/brand-meet-creator/id1609505183
00:00
We are brought to you by our production team upstart, our podcast network of virtual podcast production and management company whose unique and customizable approach helps anyone anywhere, turn their passions into a podcast and walk them through all aspects from recording virtually editing, social media assets, monetization, a custom show growth strategy and all other little details. My experience with UPS starter has been on real, I hand them everything, they take the lead, I can focus on making the show and creating the content. So if you're a creator that is looking to expand their personal brand with a podcast or a business that wants to increase awareness and credibility, sign up for a free consult today and learn more, you can go to upstart or pods.com or upstart or pods on Instagram and let them know that brand meet creator sent you. Welcome to brand meet crater podcast a place where we pull back the curtain of what it means to be all in on social media. So get ready to kick start conversations about the social media world with a little leave nothing off the table transparency, or maybe more than just a little you girl has yet to learn the art of a filter. So tuck in it's time to bring some solidarity to the influencer and brand space.
1:24
Thanks so much for joining us today Harley and I are going to be speaking about all things affiliate marketing which applies to so many people. But first Harley and I have been chit chatting about some outrageous things that have happened to us in the influencer marketing space this week. So Harley, hit us what is going on in your world this week.
1:47
Okay, this one just made my blood boil. I've gotten a couple emails this week. And I swear I turned to a couple of different people and was like, are we in retrograde? Is this a retrograde? There's this the moon? can I blame it on the moon because I don't understand what's happening. I had a brand email a client who has 3 million combined followers, 3 million combined followers and ask her Tell her she needs rails and ask her for five videos posted to both Tiktok and Instagram for $500 $100 for this 1 million follower account on Instagram, to post five bucks with her product that
2:39
is truly wild as someone who pays someone that is unfathomable.
2:45
I just can't imagine as this business owner going to this account and saying, Yep, this is my girl, this is the person that it's gonna want to work with me, because there is a lot of like misinformation in the general population of how influencers actually make money. So to think on the opposite spectrum of I have $500 I want five like, I just don't, none of that sells to me. Okay, tell me, tell me your record. Great story.
3:14
So similarly, I've been reaching out for a client to get sponsored rates to post a reel that would be posted on the influencers account and in feeds. So making sure that they push to their feed and company that was three Instagram stories. And we went out to people with a wide variety of following to get some numbers back and I received a rate that definitely had my jaw hitting the floor, and I empower influencers to set their own rates. But this was cuckoo bananas for me.
3:46
You know I love what you said on your story the other day you were like if you guys think that I'm being hard on influencers, here's the deal. I pay influencer, it was like yep, yep, yep, there we go.
3:56
Exactly. I mean, when I pay you, I can't be hard on you. But also like you let's have some realism when it comes to rates. She had a following of about I want to say definitely not more than 300,000 on Instagram, maybe a little bit less at 260,000. Somewhere around there. Decent following was expecting like a more significant number. The rate was $15,000 for one video,
4:22
wow, one video one
4:25
a single lot. A lot. Well, there was no way there was no way. I mean, she said they in order to be considered they did have to send a screenshot of recent analytics and such. And she had good impressions on her other reels, but nothing that was like you know, in the millions. Her style is cute and fits the brand but again, nothing that was going to be like we can't find this elsewhere. And you know, for context for people who are listening other people at a similar following not that you have to match what other People are doing with the same following. Right? Right. We were seeing stuff that was coming in more 5k 6k 7k 8k No one else, that's what I would, that's no one else quoted over eight. So it was a bit of a shock to see 15. And I respect people who up those rates, you know, good for you. But it's just a it's not a fit for the brand.
5:24
So I want to talk about something a little bit more accessible. Instead of just our, you know, 300k follower range, our five figure brand deals, let's talk about affiliate marketing. So number one, let's set the stage there are a couple different types of affiliate marketing, there is commission only, and this is a lot of the time the most common type of affiliate marketing, where you're getting paid per percentage, you're not seeing any kind of fixed rate, and this version is very safe for the brand. This is probably what I would say as a bare minimum for the brand. Would you agree with that, for payment of influencers?
6:09
Agree, I would say no, every brand that is in de to see in any shape or form should have affiliate marketing with influencers setup, no excuses, no matter the size, because it is a very low investment, and very safe play, you only have to pay them if they actually make a sale, which means you made money already. So 100%, every brand should be doing it.
6:31
One version that I typically recommend is adding in a fixed rate for any of my influencers, if they get some kind of ambassador program coming back to them, or they want to work with the brand, they still love the brand. But there's only this commission based pay a lot of the time, I'll recommend that they offer up a fixed rate, even if it is fairly low, just to ensure that your time is being covered. How often do you? I mean, do you see this model a lot within the clients that you're working with?
7:04
Yeah, for sure. I mean, for the clients that I'm working with, we try to have a sliding scale. So if it's not someone who has a proven track record of selling things with the brand, we may not start with an upfront fee right off the bat, because it just may not be something that's accessible for the brand's budget. However, I think what you're saying is 100% true, and how many brands should be structuring their deals? Is that a certain tipping point or a certain proof of concept here, you know, if if Harley or one of her influencers has sold, you know, a certain amount of items at that point, you know, that their audience is interested, they know how to sell on Instagram, the program is working. And so we would very much make sense after that period of time or certain tipping point threshold, that you would offer a flat fee plus the Commission, or if that's not an option, at least increase the commission rate, at the very least. And I
8:01
my struggle with affiliate marketing is that it doesn't cover your time, a lot of the time, I mean, look, you're probably going to make the sale there, that conversion is going to come between your eight to 12 unique exposure. That's marketing science facts, right. So if I have to market something, don't laugh at me. If I have to market something, eight to 12 times, that's a lot of talking about this product. That's a lot more than the one time post even. So I really worry with affiliate marketing, if my time is being covered,
8:39
for sure. And I think it is something as an influencer, you should ask yourself before you get into affiliate marketing, where else can I promote these products that might it might be a little bit less laboris. So initially, in affiliate marketing, in the heyday of influencers, it was very easy to convert people from Instagram to purchase. And those influencers still make tons of money through affiliate marketing today. However, now it's much more difficult to get people to click out of Instagram convert, etc. So if you are an influencer that has a very strong email list, a really great presence on Pinterest is a good place. You have a blog, whether that's long format, or short format, where you're recommending a lot of products, all of those are incredible places to make additional conversions for affiliate marketing. If you're the type of influencer who's really strictly on Instagram and Tiktok, which is fine. You may want to really consider what type of affiliate you're getting involved in because it is very competitive and it is very hard. And as Harley saying, you know, it may not be worth your time and effort that you're trying to sell this item. So Right. It is a way though that you get to know your audience a lot better, you know, what will they do? What won't they do? You How do they behave? Knowing all of that is super important in future brand deals.
10:06
I mean, look, I have a client who posted a I think it was just a like to know it link on Tik Tok. The Tick Tock went viral, and she ended up bringing in tons and tons and tons of sales and made like $2,000 randomly off of this one clothing item. So I mean, I know there's possibility, I know there's a lot of potential. But I just think there's a lot of weird caveats of like the price of the product, the industry, how many affiliate programs you can do at one time, like I put on my story today, a poll about how many affiliate programs are you a part of, and there were a couple of answers of like one to two, none or lots of them. And the majority of people right now are clicking lots of them. Because there are so many out there. Sure. So there's, it's a weird stopping point of like, I use this makeup, so let me you, so let me have that link, even if I'm not going to make money off of it.
11:13
Sure. I mean, I think it just brings up a good point about like, knowing your type of content, and what you're gonna promote, very deeply. And also, you know, just being aware of how the brand runs their affiliate program, some people only run off of like to know it and other types of, you know, places where it's just get the link and do it. And there's not really a screening process. But other times where things are more expensive, and you know, you have a lot going on, you have that direct relationship with the brand, they're giving you a code, you have more room for negotiation. And you might want to save your efforts for that type of brand relationship, where they're coming up to you directly. And they're saying, we want to onboard you, we want to give you the code. You know, this is the structure and there's a lot more personalization there. So it's definitely something to consider. And I think that more influencers could be a bit more strict about what they are getting involved in, for sure.
12:12
I think that's a necessity too. I really, at this point, I will turn down every single affiliate offer that is sent my way no matter what it is, because number one, I just don't have the capacity to fit any what I feel like is more tagging into my life. I'm like, aren't having my own product, I already have a podcast to talk about, I already have all of this stuff. Like, I'm not going to talk about my makeup on top of that, like it doesn't fit in naturally enough, I would have to go way out of my way. So do you think that you think that you can only have these affiliates for your tried and true everyday items? Or how often do you need to be using these? How often do we need to retire? I
12:56
mean, I think that if you are a full time creator, or even like that full time creation is definitely in your near future or you'd like it to be, I think that you should be affiliate linking everything that you're recommending, but you need to be careful about what you recommend and how you do it. Right. If it just seems like Harley is like tagging a different product every single day for me to buy, it's a lot different than if I see her, you know, incorporating it into content every single week. And I know it's something that she regularly uses. But you know, it's it's different for everyone. It really depends on your niche. Of course, when you're in beauty and fashion, I do think that affiliate is much heavier than maybe some other places, and especially for affiliates, where you are tagging to a larger department store or a larger entity. So when you're tagging to
13:51
the latest version, the the Amazon version I feel like that's very different than the you know, shoe brand affiliate though, because if I can be a part of I mean, I am a part of Amazon affiliate. And that's really easy, because I can you know, add anything I like to know it is very similar. You can add anything but getting involved in a smaller or specific brands affiliate.
14:17
Yeah, I think you're right, you do have to be careful. Like if you're going to be on boarded to something within a smaller brand. Definitely reading that fine print and knowing what you're signing up for and not getting too deep into too many of those is really important. And I think all of this goes back to the influencer really knowing what do they want to do with their channel? What do they want to stand for on the platform? You know, how do they want to be communicating with their community? And there's many times and I will say this and people who know me know, I will reach out to my friends because I remember that they promoted something and I will say do you have the affiliate link for this if they're an influencer or creator and I think that's really Yeah, people really appreciate that because I know you are trying to like make the hustle happen, and not me, maybe you don't link it every single time. Or maybe I didn't buy it that time that you did link it, but I took a screenshot, you know, I'm always trying to go back to people that I appreciate. And maybe they weren't the one that introduced me to the product, but I saw them use it, and I know they're in the space, I'll go back to my favorite beauty creators and like, Hey, do you have an affiliate link, I'm gonna go shop on Sephora or whatever, because I want to give them to them. You know, so I think that's where
15:33
I'll go to the brand and look at photos and looking for look for someone that's like, that person took a really good photo, I'm gonna use their links. I love that
15:43
idea. I love that idea. Yeah, I mean, I think that, like, if you can, if you know, you're gonna buy something that's very popular on the Instagram or on the tick tock, take two seconds and try and find someone who has a link to it, because most likely that someone is making a couple bucks off of that. And that might just like really make their day and kind of like change the trajectory of the way that they influence. So that's something to take away, whether you're an influencer supporting another influencer, or just a listener that wants to support influence or friends.
16:14
Yeah, they do. Yeah. I think with with these programs, though, I mean, that just goes back to you have to be in it for the long haul, if you're going to be jumping into one of these affiliate programs I had. And this program was just starting. So I don't blame the company company at all. But when I was probably at, like, 10k or so I jumped into an affiliate program. And they said, we try it out for three months to see if you're making sales. And then we kind of go from there. But I heard about the product over and over probably at that like six month mark, where people were like, Hey, do you have that added to that, like, I know that you talked about this brand all the time, and I'm like, I don't have that anymore. And part of that was like newbie sales skills. Like I didn't know what I was doing. But it takes a while.
17:06
It does take a while. And I think it's important to be realistic as an influencer, like many things, you can make some money off of affiliate, but there is a cream of the crop of people who do it and do it extremely well and who have been doing it for a long time, make a ton of money. And that's wonderful for them. But it's not the rule. It's the exception. So just being realistic with like how much percentage of your income this is going to be, is really, really important. And I think it also leads us to like an interesting story and point that I recently did some reels and tiktoks around, which is what happens if the brand says that you're selling too much, or doesn't want to pay you in a timely fashion. So as early No,
17:54
you're the time back in when all the time but I cannot even believe this story go on.
17:59
So Harley and I both follow in a cow the f y p m dot VIP on Instagram, which I know ton of influencers follow. They're one they're doing wonderful work for the industry. And they posted a comment recently from a follower where they were not getting paid for their affiliate partnership. And then they followed up and they finally got in contact with the brand and the brand said they weren't paying them because they sold too much too many units they were making too much. And I went alarm bells slash flames of fury went off inside of me. I was like I I was so upset for them like as someone in influencer marketing on the brand side like how dare you tell someone that they did too good of a job for you. So like you can't pay them? Like they have that money?
18:55
That's that's your bare minimum? Yeah, your affiliate marketing, I think is your bare minimum of paying influencers. So you're telling me that you can't pay the for the sales that this person brought in? Yeah, they literally made sales.
19:09
There's a direct correlation. There's no cheating the numbers or the tracking system. It's all done very aboveboard here. So to say like, oh, you sold too many units and like unless there's a stipulation in the contract, where they're like, oh, at this rate, like we can't pay you anymore, which also, again, is crazy, because they made the ROI is in their bank account, the products are sold. I just can't believe
19:33
literally in their bank account. They've already sold it.
19:35
Exactly, exactly. I was like I care. I don't understand what is happening here. And not only that, but like the way I structure it and how we started talking in this episode is that as you sell more, I would like to pay you more. I would like to give you a higher commission rate. I'd like to give you the upfront fee. I want to keep you in my network because I know you can sell it and so discouraged To you, yeah. Why would I discourage you? And like you sold too much? Sorry. Red flag.
20:06
All right. One last thing that I want to touch on here is the price of the product within affiliate marketing, because one of the things that I see all the time is snack companies that use affiliate marketing for bars for whatever. And in my brain, that doesn't make any sense. Because I'm gonna go to the supermarket and I'm going to buy it in the supermarket, I'm not going to buy it online, let's be real. And that $2 bar means how much money for me? 20 cents Max
20:45
best 20 cents? Yeah, it's essentially like that Girl Scout Cookie method. Like, you have to sell 1 billion boxes.
20:52
1 billion. So what do you think is that sweet spot for pricing? For a positive benefit for both brand and creator?
21:02
Um, I think that you're looking at something that's definitely over 20 $25 Ideally, and then you can really go up from there, depending on the type of creator that you are and what else you put into your content. So right now I work with a company that their average price point is about $300. So we are very selective when we go through the influencers that we reach out to that they had to have a history of tagging other products at that price range, because we know it's expensive. But the positive for is that when you sell one because of the structure that we have you make $50. So you know, that can add up quite quickly. But you have to be confident that you can sell that high price point.
21:51
Yes. Oh, that's that's such a good one, too. And I think about this so often, because there's this weird ideology when you first begin influencer marketing, about the gifting and about how fun it is to get those gifted products. So you might reach out to a brand that's on your, you know, goals list on your wish list for the dress in their new collection that cost $200 Because you want it because you wouldn't want to pay for it, because you can't afford it. But you're really telling me that your followers can afford it. Your followers are gonna want that. Yeah, you can't afford other like, like priced items, like probably not,
22:33
for sure. And I think that's really up to the influencer, then you know, like, it's, if that's what you want to do in exchange for content, because you really want an item like that's totally fine to use your influence in that way occasionally, but to think that then like being an affiliate partner of that brand, and moving forward with them is going to be beneficial. It's really probably not. So I think for for both sides, brand and creator, it's really important to just have some sort of thresholds, both on the positive and the negative side, you know, on the negative side, if you're not seeing sales after certain amount of months, and I think what Harley is saying six I think is enough time, then it's time to pull the plug and that's on both ends, it's it's time to say, You know what, this wasn't a fit, thank you, or whatever else and walk away and maybe you can circle back later, or maybe not. And you know that that really goes both ways. So I think it's super important to have those things in mind as you enter into any sort of partnership, where where's my hard stop on this and then on the positive side to to know, hey, in three months, I'm going to check in and if I've been seeing consistently that the brand is telling me I'm selling, I'm gonna start asking for an upfront fee. I'm gonna start asking for the increase in affiliate percentage. And same for a brand. You should have a plan in place already that after a certain amount of months if you're seeing certain creators rise to the top consistently convert and do really good work for you that you're prepared with that money or with that upgraded percentage to keep them motivated because just like any other business when you're at a stalemate like you need that next level if you want to stay motivated and stay involved.
24:13
If you've had some major wins or some major flops and influencer marketing in affiliate marketing, we want to hear them. Thank you for tuning in. Come head to our inbox at the Harley Jordan and Sonia dot Elise on Instagram. And let's chat more.
24:30
Can't wait to hear from you. Bye